NEO-NAZIS ON LAST FM: When A Social Network Supports National Socialists…

30 Responses

1. 

   bellezebub März 10, 2009 at 4:56 pm ·

   Dudes any concessions to those of us who don’t speak/read German? Can anyone give us a quick run down of what it the reply was? I think I saw the word for forbidden, but I’m not quite sure. Sorry, I just don’t trust people telling what to think about things when I can’t even read the language.
   Muchas gracias,
   Belle

2. 

   tehcenter März 10, 2009 at 10:30 pm ·

   This is only half as good since I don’t read German but I knew there was a reason I don’t use Last FM.

3. 

   admin März 11, 2009 at 12:00 am ·

   THey are basically saying that there are no links to buy the music and the bands appear only because people listen to them. So not down to Last FM….which is not acceptable.

4. 

   janush_hammer März 11, 2009 at 12:01 am ·

   fuck the nazis

   Last FM should stay away from that shit

5. 

   bellezebub März 11, 2009 at 1:07 am ·

   I’m not really sure how Last FM works, but that does seem a complete abdication of responsibility. Am I correct in assuming that there is no form of regulation for sites like this? Are they suggesting that *because* there are no links to buy the music, they then aren’t supporting the bands, and in turn the scene and the concept? That argument doesn’t really fly because they are certainly propagating it. This is not an issue that any entity can stand on the sidelines and say “it’s got nothing to do with us, we’re not political” because if a group is using your platform to make a political statement, they are dragging you into politics-on their side. So they decide your politics for you.
   It’s a bastard, isn’t it, when fascist cunts get to use liberal values to facilitate the continuance of their ideology. This is not something that I can reconcile: that I have to let people have their say, even when what they are saying is as repugnant as this.

6. 

   DJ_dangerzone678 März 11, 2009 at 2:04 am ·

   sure, but i think that the internet should not be censored

   DJ Danger

7. 

   electrox März 11, 2009 at 2:43 am ·

   I am with Bellezebub! Last FM is not the “internet”. it’s a company.
   and it’s not a search engine either.

   by the way there are many neo-nazis on myspace.

   Myspace seems more concerned with nude pictures than with nazi images.
   it’s a shame

8. 

   DavidRXV März 11, 2009 at 2:44 am ·

   Yeah, their music is not available (which means they aren’t hosting any Nazi material, from what I saw). As soon as someone “scrobbles” a play for an artist that does not exist on Last.FM. The site generates a new page for the artist. It’s just for statistics.

   There are probably hundreds of fascist band pages created everyday. I’m on the fence about this. I don’t mind the page existing for statistic purposes but then again, the band might find out about Last.FM and it’s free service, thus the hate spreads once again.

9. 

   Samantha März 11, 2009 at 3:20 am ·

   “The Bush era is OVER. thank you?.”

   More like, “The Bush era is OVER. thank god..”

   I don’t use Last FM.

10. 

    bellezebub März 11, 2009 at 11:27 am ·

    It would be an interesting experiment to see if Last FM would have any issue with, say, a band supporting Muslim terrorism, or maybe the Real IRA since that seems to be blowing up again. I know those aren’t quite parallel, as in theory, the Nazis aren’t a terrorist organization but a political party (from their perspective). Still, it would be interesting to see if they draw any line anywhere, or if they just feel that the Nazis aren’t that dangerous.

    RE: censorship- I don’t believe in it either. That’s why this is such a conundrum, because effectively I’m saying they should be censored. THis is why it is so fucking difficult to be a liberal; because every day you get presented with information that makes you re-assess everything you believe and believe in. And there are times when you have to transgress those values to defend them. I would love to be absolutist about this, and have the utmost respect for people who can manage to say there should never be censorship no matter what the cause. I’m glad they are there working the defense. But you know what? Im tired of being more fair to people than they are to me or anyone else, When history asks us what we did to stop the Nazis, what are we going to say? That we did nothing for fear of censoring them? That we believed in their rights to spout their propaganda? I can’t help but think that in some wars, you sacrifice bigger things than blood and bone, and maybe this is a liberal’s biggest sacrifice.
    Belle

11. 

    tehcenter März 11, 2009 at 4:05 pm ·

    Kind of off topic but on my way to work today I heard that Germany wants to extradite an 80 something year old man from the US because they believe he was a guard at a concentration camp all those years ago.

    I thought it was interesting that they were still looking for nazis from WWII.

12. 

    javabass März 11, 2009 at 8:01 pm ·

    if Last Fm doesn’t do something about it, I cancel my account.

    no way I can take this shit much longer

    java

13. 

    loggedin März 11, 2009 at 9:34 pm ·

    “Be respectful to each other. Do not vent your frustrations at other members, whether through your comments or material you post on the site. There is zero tolerance for predatory behaviour, disparaging or defamatory comments, threats, harassment, illegal activities, invading privacy, propaganda, racial hatred, offensive cultural behaviour, vulgar or obscene content, or other inappropriate behaviour or the revealing of other members’ personal information.” —> That’s from Last FM’s (english) Community Guideline. Hmmm…I wonder if this stands for hate-singing bands as well. Yet, I checked it, and you can’t listen to any of the songs. Why fucking post those links here anyway? Fucking bad ad is still an ad.
    Freedom of speech is a funny thing. For example: there was that bishop in swedish tv denying the existence of gas chambers during the 2nd world war and all he said was “I’m sorry”? FUCK THAT SHIT. Why is he still a bishop? WTF? Yet, he has the right to be this narrow-minded and utterly stupid in public…sadly.

14. 

    Handsomedead März 12, 2009 at 2:15 am ·

    It’s odd that last fm condemns propaganda, racial hatred etc but would allow space for neo-nazi bands. That just reeks of double standards.
    The freedom of speech issue is a funny thing, I personally think that anyone has the right to say anything they want and through any medium … but equally im well within my rights to tell them to fuck off.

15. 

    Minami März 12, 2009 at 5:41 am ·

    I never knew that there were this many Neo-Nazis that have infected Last.fm. It really makes me think out of all the other social networks how many percentage are pro-Nazi establishments. Its scary. I find this unacceptable on Last.fm part. Thank you for this I will have my voice heard my them. REMOVE THE NAZIS! FUCK THEM! Its totally a double standard from Last.fm!

    Last.fm should stop worrying about banning trolls and people posting nude pictures and kick these fuckers out.

    “And yes, Alec is so pissed off that he?ll re-release ?Hetzjagd auf Nazis!? on iTunes”

    LOL Awesome

16. 

    bellezebub März 12, 2009 at 11:29 am ·

    Regarding the Catholic Church, it’s always been dubious on it’s stance regarding Nazi behavior. It was reluctant to condemn the party from the get-go, and they only apologized for their non-interference a few years ago. Are we surprised? We shouldn’t be; this is after all the organization which took out indemnity insurance to pay off the victims of pederastic priests, They’ve always been way quicker to condemn their lay-people than the priests who lead them.

    I guess what I can’t believe is this-that all these years later, the Nazis are still an issue, still saying all the things they’ve always said, and gathering force. And it’s all over the place, not just in Germany, but in France, Britain and the States and Australia as well. And it seems like Germany really did try to keep this from happening by banning the imagery and symbols. But I suppose it just goes to show that you can’t make something go away by banning it.

17. 

    nixniente März 12, 2009 at 9:52 pm ·

    I don’t understand German, so it’s possible I’m missing something, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to ask last.fm to refuse to scrobble or list bands with neo-nazi beliefs. I don’t think their inclusion of these groups among those that are listed amounts to “supporting” neo-nazis.

18. 

    MrsNice1979 März 14, 2009 at 1:43 am ·

    As an active last.user I have to admit that I have given up on asking the last.staff to act up and get rid off the nazi scum. It pointed out to be pretty useless – see above. A lot of other users feel the same way (that something has to be done: http://www.last.fm/group/clean+up+last.fm%21?setlang=en). Well, if artists are joining in now, too (thanks, Alec) I might think about trying it again though.

    And to all of you who think that this has something to do with censorship: go and try to find your brain. It has to be somewhere out there, just keep looking.

19. 

    zeph März 15, 2009 at 12:44 am ·

    Unless i’m missing something i have to disagree with the Anti-Communist group being on this list. It seems that as against Nazis as they are against Communists.

    I know you may not be too concerned with American politics but i don’t see how the “Bush era” has anything to do with this. Especially when the site concerned is based in the UK.

    But good luck with trying get last.fm to rid the site of these groups/music. Especially since the site’s based in the same nation that allows Islamists to also express their neo-nazi-esque views and respect for Hitler, among other views. My guess is that they’re not going anywhere…like most of that side of the world/Europe politically correct and ass-kissing liberals are common.

20. 

    Alec Empire März 15, 2009 at 1:08 am ·

    we added this group to raise the question where to draw the line here…the whole debate is more complex than most people think …it also varies from country to country…

21. 

    nepalesebliss April 14, 2009 at 6:14 pm ·

    first: i applaud alec empire’s efforts to speak out against racial hatred. i also agree with bellezebub’s point that this is a conundrum. i join in with those that see last.fm for the hypocrites they are. banning users that speak out against the staff while allowing white-supremacist to run free with their groups. i think it is important to realize that last.fm is just a logo belonging to the parent company: a privately held mega-media corporation owned by Sumner Redstone (goggle him). The only real way to affect change there is to get the attention of main stream news orgs. imho the only sure way to ‘get to them’ is through negative pubic opinion.

22. 

    AndreaUrbanFox April 14, 2009 at 8:13 pm ·

    This is a journal entry that a friend has written and it is a good read:
    Revenue > Morals
    http://www.last.fm/user/SubverseRadio/journal/2009/04/11/2n1f2w_revenue_%3E_morals

    Interesting that Last.fm has such a strict policy of not discussing
    other social network sites, warns & bans anyone who stand up to them, etc when a couple of minutes searching Last.fm
    will bring up these pages:

    http://www.last.fm/group/White+Europe
    http://www.last.fm/group/nazi

    There are LOTS of forums of this nature on Last.fm and no matter how often you report them, they are allowed to carry on spreading hate. I personally suffered from anti-Semitic jibes, reported them and nothing was d0one about it.

    Makes me wonder if CBS is aware of it and if the companies that advertise on Last.fm are also aware that their money is going into a company which might not condone racism as such but does absolutely NOTHING to rid itself of it

23. 

    tinomen71 April 15, 2009 at 2:58 am ·

    I agree that the issue of censorship is a dicey one. I believe that people have a right to express their beliefs, provided those beliefs don’t lead to violations of the basic human rights of others. Of course, in the case of Nazis / white supremacists / et al, there entire belief system runs contrary to these ideas. So what do you do? My personal feeling is that, as an individual, you follow your conscience. As a corporation, business, social network, etc, you follow your conscience again. Last.fm is a privately owned social network, not a government of elected officials. As such, they are free to do (or not do) pretty much as they please. Though they may not directly support them or subscribe to their ideology, the fact that they allow these groups to continue to exist speaks for itself. This is guilt by a failure to act. They’re within their rights to do nothing. We are also within our rights to object, complain, protest, boycott. The holocaust happened in large part because it was allowed to happen by people who knew it was going on, knew it was an obscenity, but did nothing to stop it. My suggestion to all of you who object to this would be to follow your own consciences. I plan to cancel my account, and make sure they know why. I’m also going to write to all of my friends to make sure they know about this. Maybe I can take a few more with me.

24. 

    MrsNice1979 April 16, 2009 at 8:58 pm ·

    http://www.focus.de/digital/internet/facebook-neonazi-propaganda-im-online-netzwerk_aid_390286.html

    A very interesting article about how the problem is handled on Facebook (only in german, but the essence is: Facebook IS banning neonazi propaganda – no idea why last.fm cannot do the same). Will translate this and mail it to the last staff.

    @ tinomen71: To cancel an account is no way of responding to this I believe btw. You want to leave networks like last to the white scum? No way. I will stay for sure and keep on complaining. If you want to put it this way you can leave any social network on the www because the fascist scum is everywhere. We have to fight them, not run away.

25. 

    tinomen71 April 17, 2009 at 1:09 am ·

    @MrsNice1979 thanks, both for the link and the advice. It’s the same feedback I’ve been getting from everyone and I’ve already decided leaving is the wrong move, which would be the same as conceding defeat. Instead, I believe I’ll keep writing to them and annoying them about it. And keep blogging about it too.

    It’s a really interesting (and important) question: When it comes to free expression, where, if anywhere, should lines be drawn? Is it censorship to silence hate groups? Their whole agenda is based on lies and misinformation. They’re using their right to free expression as a tool to spread hatred and lies, and, ironically, to deny those same rights to whatever group of people they’ve targeted for their hatred. Should hate really be protected by free expression when it’s founded on falsehood? When it’s intent is to pervert the laws that grant those freedoms and deny people their human rights? When it’s used to incite and justify unjustified violence?

    As for Last.fm, they are within their rights to do nothing about this, but I find their handling of Andrea ridiculous. Is that the standard here? That they leave the nazis alone as long as they don’t pester the administrators, but ban a subscriber who had the temerity to tell them she found the presence of these groups offensive? Or *gasp* that she mentioned another social network in their hallowed forums? WTF? I have links to at least 4 other networks listed right on my profile page. That seems somewhat Gestapo-like to me.

26. 

    nepalesebliss April 17, 2009 at 9:21 am ·

    @tinomen71 … glad you decided to stay and protest…i am also conflicted by the prospect of staying on a site run by hypocrites. it’s as though by staying we are condoning their actions, or in this case inaction, by even appearing to participate. I think as long as we do not become complacent … as long as we continue to speak out … it’s good. MrsNice1979 puts it very well i think.

    Regarding the AndreaUrbanFox situation: users are not allowed to discuss the banning of other users with staff. apparently neither is the banned user as Andrea has yet to receive any answers to her inquiries. it is however fairly obvious what happened. she is a fighter and as such, has, over time, given the staff just enough reason, just enough documentation, that they prepared a ‘magic bullet’ they felt they could use on her at any time. interestingly, they used it just as she was poised to become the leader of a large group of angry users. clearly staff did not want that to happen. reminds me of the quote that ends:”and when they came for me … there was no one left that could speak out.”

27. 

    MrsNice1979 April 21, 2009 at 6:16 am ·

    @tinomen71 & nepalesebliss: nice to see that you want to continue to participate.

    Mails to last.staff and filing a complaint (including this EYHO blog entry) to http://www.jugendschutz.net have (well, probably… might have helped anyway) led to the result, that the last.fm group “White Europe” is no longer accesible from the german version of last.fm (though it is from other countries a british friend told me but … it is a start). It seems to be sisyphean labour – complaining about nazi groups/users/bands sites one by one and forewarding them to the staff – but in the worst cases at least seems to succeed.

28. 

    tinomen71 April 21, 2009 at 2:59 pm ·

    Well, I wrote another email to the folks at Last.fm support expressing my dismay at the continued presence of the neo-nazi groups. We’ll see what happens, or if they even bother to respond. I think the more users that write to them the more likely we are to get some kind of reply or action taken, so I encourage everyone who’s reading this to do the same. Be polite, be intelligent, be as diplomatic as you can without watering down your point, you’ll attract more flies with honey- nobody like to be heavy-handedly told what to do with their own website! And get your friends involved too! Spread the word around. The more letters they get the more seriously they’ll take them.

    I would also suggest you keep the subject of AndreaUrbanFox a separate matter from the Nazi problem. They may be connected or they may not, but chances are if you bring the two things up together your note will be dismissed out of hand on both counts- if it’s true that Last.fm’s policy is not to discuss the reasons for banning a user with other users, then mentioning her will give them an excuse not to respond at all. But that said, by all means pester them about Andrea as well! If she was banned for discussing competing networks on the site, or for being to noisy in her denouncement of Last’s policy regarding the hate-groups, then clearly there is a double standard at work here.

29. 

    sanitysama April 26, 2009 at 11:06 pm ·

    The internet is very free and full of things that are widely offensive and some things that are subjectively offensive. The widely offensive topics like Nazism, racism, theism, all get commonly looked down upon in communities, but let’s face the facts: LastFM is not a community! It’s a poor excuse for a social network that’s being turned into a money-making machine for whoever the fuck owns it now. While the subject seems to be hot, I’d try to take it up personally with whoever’s in charge, they don’t listen to anything on a wide scale; they’re the guys in suits, they don’t give a fuck about anything that’s not paperback and green.

    Well maybe it’s not true, it’s just not in their interests to cripple users’ privileges unless they are in some sort of clear violation. It makes me think of a room where there is three guys in suits, one customer, and one guy taking a dump on the floor. The guys in the suits are literally holding the walls together with rope, the guy taking the dump on the floor is.. doing just that, and the customer is complaining about the smell and unsanitary condition of the room. The suits can’t stop it, they’re holding the room together. The guy dumping, well he’s having at it, and the customer, he can’t do anything either. Well what option does the customer have? He can only leave. This is just a simple analogy for the entire internet. Sad realization for some extremists, but there’s not much to be done here and neither you or me really want to touch that shit.

    On a lighter note, however much lighter it can seem, I’d rather see them in the comfort of their homes in front of computer screens than on the streets spreading hate.

30. 

    Twitted by andreaurbanfox Juni 8, 2009 at 11:42 am ·

    [...] This post was Twitted by andreaurbanfox – Real-url.org [...]

Leave a Reply Click here to cancel reply.

You must be logged in to post a comment.